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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggyRotten View Post
    Right there.
    ?????? Are you saying most teachers do not get paid in the summer when schools are closed?

  2. #32
    Martin Russell
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    No i'm saying you are speaking through you're hoop and are wrong. Categorically wrong. Bang up as many question marks as you want, they add as much sense to your arguments as your made up stats do. Most teachers get paid for 9 months spread out over 12. This is changing. Most of the stuff you are speaking about such as correction money is going. Your catch all definition of teachers demonstrates your lack of knowledge of the education system. An ever increasing number of teachers are being placed on rolling contracts which end at the start of summer and if renewed commence in September.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggyRotten View Post
    No i'm saying you are speaking through you're hoop and are wrong.
    Tell me you're not teaching kids English, please.

  4. #34
    Martin Russell
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    That must be your shortest post in the history of the internet. Congrats.

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  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggyRotten View Post
    That must be your shortest post in the history of the internet. Congrats.
    No sense of humour, eh? So you ARE a teacher.

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  8. #36
    Martin Russell
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaz View Post
    No sense of humour, eh? So you ARE a teacher.
    The irony...

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  10. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggyRotten View Post
    The irony...
    Irony? Only if you're American.

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    Martin Russell
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  13. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dodge View Post
    Thats pretty much what you do. I've been over this ground with you a million times, down to every minute detail. You usually ignore the points made, as you have with Jimdagym
    oh - th old "you did it first" argument -

    I didnt put words in people mouth or jump to conclusions about what they "practically said" in order to suit my argument.

    I didnt respond quote by quote to Jim because I dont have all day to be arsing around with quote brackets - but he said I was comparing Teachers to Bankers pensions (which I used to point out the rediculous medical card rules and not to have a go at teachers)

    Similarly I'm not attacking Gardai - I'm saying we spend millions on Pensions for alot of gardai (and firemen) in their 50's and 60's to stay at home nearly 20 years before the rest of the country retire- these people are paid not to work - and then we pay millions to Lay people (and active gardai) to complete forms, man desks in police stations and attend court because "johnny mcgonny broke a red light"

    I also critiscised the clerical working week of 33.75 hours (16% below standard EU working week as negotiated by unions during the boom time) - Jim says anyone forced to work these extra 16% will be demotivated and will not give the return - I'd argue that the fact that the working week was reduced by 16% (in addition to huge pay increases) didnt lead to an increase in efficiency - instead in resulted in the massive inflation of the public services to complete roles which clerical workers no longer got done because of a lack of hours.

    Jim asked do I want a medal for working - no I dont - but I do not expect my tax funds not to be wasted -

    I said Jim agreed with Half my post - He agreed the medical cards for all pensioners is rediculous (ala bankers), he agreed its public spending that got us in this mess, he agreed people wont give up cushy jobs, he agreed (at least I think he did) that many of medical card holders should utilise our public health system exclusive of the medical cards -

    He asked who defines genuine with regard to "who the needy are" - I am not going to reccomend parameters, but know dozens of people who get medical cards and manage to smoke, live better lifestyles than I do and enjoy many foreign holidays each year - a medical card shoudlnt be a subsidy for lifestyle choices - it should be a protection for the vulnerable (by whatever parameteres are decided - but the current ones are obviouslybroken) - a relatively healthy pensioner on 30,000 per year is not vulnerable, nor is a banker of 300,000 or a retired politician on generous pensions. likewise People who have medical cards and kids in private schools, dont need a medical card etc etc.

    He asked am I earning the same as I was when I started my job- thats not the point. Increments are increases for doing nothing additional (other than loyalty and experience - experience doesnt mean better perform). Paying increments increases your wages without your efficiencies or performance, in fact it stops people driving efficiencies or performance! in every job I have ever had any pay increase was based upon annual/bi-annual performance reviews, not on the date I signed my contract. (every job can be performance monitored). If I was guaranteed a pay increase every year, why would I work harder or create performace efficiencies?

    He said teachers derserve every penny they get and asked how many rich ones do I know- again I never questined their base rates or implied they were rich - I simply said they get paid 52 weeks per year and get 100's of days off when there is work there which they could be utilised for and still get generous holidays (as an aside I dont accept REDARMY's argument that teachers take pay cuts for the summer, compare a teachers annual salary to that of a nurse, accountant or clerical worker and they are higher paid for less hours - never mind the opportunities to extra's such exams, summEr courses etcetc which are not open to other professions)

    The only people who would protect these cushy terms are those with something to gain or fear they could be next - all my critiscisms/proposals involve asking people who currently get money for staying home (above and beyond what is reasonable in my opinion) to perform duties for the money being paid.
    Last edited by Caolan; 2nd February 2012 at 10:56 AM.

  14. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    oh - th old "you did it first" argument -
    Actually, its the old "get up out of that you hypocritical fool" argument

    Do a search for my posts on the subject, I'm sick to death of having to point out your lack of knowledge on this subject (even down to the basic facts of hours worked in the civil service)
    "We've seen you come, we'll see you go"

  15. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggyRotten View Post
    No i'm saying you are speaking through you're hoop and are wrong. Categorically wrong. Bang up as many question marks as you want, they add as much sense to your arguments as your made up stats do. Most teachers get paid for 9 months spread out over 12. This is changing. Most of the stuff you are speaking about such as correction money is going. Your catch all definition of teachers demonstrates your lack of knowledge of the education system. An ever increasing number of teachers are being placed on rolling contracts which end at the start of summer and if renewed commence in September.
    my ???? denotes my lack of understanding where you say I am wrong- now Red Army sayys teachers get reduced pay in the summer- you say they get NO pay in the summer (bullshit) - which on e is correct?

    to clear things up - most teachers get paid 52 weeks per year

    A teachers annual entry salary and incremental salary is greater than that of a Nurse - Nurses work "full time" and teachers work "term time" (and by and large supplement their earnings in the "off term" and evenings performing other work such as JC/LC, grinds, courses, lessons, classes, camps, taxi driving etc etc

    to further poo poo your argument - a temp teacher gets paid approx €40 per hour (as per INTO), a temp nurse gets paid €18.50 per hour + hols

    What "catch all definition" are you referring to?

    oh- and I'm glad that the corection money and other things I have highlighted are changing- maybe it wasnt such nonsense after all!!!!

    the €40 per hour a teacher gets incorporates the additional "holidays"

    if we were to break down your reasoning

  16. #42
    Super Moderator Jimdagym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    oh - th old "you did it first" argument -

    I didnt put words in people mouth or jump to conclusions about what they "practically said" in order to suit my argument.

    I didnt respond quote by quote to Jim because I dont have all day to be arsing around with quote brackets - but he said I was comparing Teachers to Bankers pensions (which I used to point out the rediculous medical card rules and not to have a go at teachers)
    Great start for you Caolon. I said you were comparing them and you agree you were. BTW, I said I cant believe you are lumping them in together, not comparing them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    Similarly I'm not attacking Gardai - I'm saying we spend millions on Pensions for alot of gardai (and firemen) in their 50's and 60's to stay at home nearly 20 years before the rest of the country retire- these people are paid not to work - and then we pay millions to Lay people (and active gardai) to complete forms, man desks in police stations and attend court because "johnny mcgonny broke a red light"
    Re-stating your point, not countering mine.


    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    I also critiscised the clerical working week of 33.75 hours (16% below standard EU working week as negotiated by unions during the boom time) - Jim says anyone forced to work these extra 16% will be demotivated and will not give the return - I'd argue that the fact that the working week was reduced by 16% (in addition to huge pay increases) didnt lead to an increase in efficiency - instead in resulted in the massive inflation of the public services to complete roles which clerical workers no longer got done because of a lack of hours.
    Argue it with facts. Show me where people were hired to fill the work left over from shorter working hours. That would be a matter of public record.


    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    Jim asked do I want a medal for working - no I dont - but I do not expect my tax funds not to be wasted -
    Define "wasted"? Pensions, law enforcement, and schooling? Give me an example of anywhere in the world running a lean budget to your liking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    I said Jim agreed with Half my post - He agreed the medical cards for all pensioners is rediculous (ala bankers)
    No I didnt

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    he agreed its public spending that got us in this mess,
    No I didnt

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    he agreed people wont give up cushy jobs,
    Thats 1.


    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    he agreed (at least I think he did) that many of medical card holders should utilise our public health system exclusive of the medical cards -
    No I didnt. I said it was available.

    1 from 4. Not very effecient, eh?


    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    He asked who defines genuine with regard to "who the needy are" - I am not going to reccomend parameters, but know dozens of people who get medical cards and manage to smoke, live better lifestyles than I do and enjoy many foreign holidays each year - a medical card shoudlnt be a subsidy for lifestyle choices - it should be a protection for the vulnerable (by whatever parameteres are decided - but the current ones are obviouslybroken) - a relatively healthy pensioner on 30,000 per year is not vulnerable, nor is a banker of 300,000 or a retired politician on generous pensions. likewise People who have medical cards and kids in private schools, dont need a medical card etc etc.
    Well if you cant come up with a better way of doing it, you should probably hold your tongue. (also, more restating your own point instead of arguing mine)


    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    He asked am I earning the same as I was when I started my job- thats not the point.
    That is exactly the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    Increments are increases for doing nothing additional (other than loyalty and experience - experience doesnt mean better perform). Paying increments increases your wages without your efficiencies or performance, in fact it stops people driving efficiencies or performance! in every job I have ever had any pay increase was based upon annual/bi-annual performance reviews, not on the date I signed my contract. (every job can be performance monitored). If I was guaranteed a pay increase every year, why would I work harder or create performace efficiencies?
    I disagree strongly with this, and I'd love to see the cost analysis of having predifined increments in a department of say 10,000 people weighed against a cost of reviewing and administering pay reviews for 10,000 people over 10 years.


    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    He said teachers derserve every penny they get and asked how many rich ones do I know- again I never questined their base rates or implied they were rich - I simply said they get paid 52 weeks per year and get 100's of days off when there is work there which they could be utilised for and still get generous holidays (as an aside I dont accept REDARMY's argument that teachers take pay cuts for the summer, compare a teachers annual salary to that of a nurse, accountant or clerical worker and they are higher paid for less hours - never mind the opportunities to extra's such exams, summEr courses etcetc which are not open to other professions)
    Please post base rates for teachers, nurse's, accountants and clerical workers in the employment of the state that you are arguing this point on. Again, Its all public record.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    The only people who would protect these cushy terms are those with something to gain or fear they could be next - all my critiscisms/proposals involve asking people who currently get money for staying home (above and beyond what is reasonable in my opinion) to perform duties for the money being paid.
    Fucking sound bites. You are overpaid. I can say that with great certainty. I am overpaid, I can say that with great certainty too. Are you or I going to hand back part of our wages or argue for worse conditions? I dont think so, so dont try and make out that the human trait of self preservation is some form of cancer.


    You have been asked before if the public service is so appealing, why havent you ever gone in to it. I dont recall your answer.


    By the way, your lovely long post didnt address 1 of my arguements.

  17. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimdagym View Post
    I disagree strongly with this, and I'd love to see the cost analysis of having predifined increments in a department of say 10,000 people weighed against a cost of reviewing and administering pay reviews for 10,000 people over 10 years
    Whether cost analysis was done or not, NOBODY in the public service gets an icrement without a performance appraisal

    Plenty of independent reports ont he subject if anyone wants to spend the time;
    http://www.thisis.eu/index.php?page=...cal-government
    http://www.cpsu.ie/Images/ListBuilde...ion_Report.pdf
    "We've seen you come, we'll see you go"

  18. #44
    Martin Russell
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    Sweet suffering Jesus. You're coming across like someone who genuinely thinks that any opinion they have is fact. I’ve discussed this with you before, please stop trying to pass your opinion off as truth because for the most part it is based on (your) weak anecdotal evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    my ???? denotes my lack of understanding where you say I am wrong- now Red Army sayys teachers get reduced pay in the summer- you say they get NO pay in the summer (bullshit) - which on e is correct?
    Good man, now you can't decide which one it is. I've worked in both public and private. Read carefully...NOT ALL TEACHERS GET PAID DURING THE SUMMER. Those that do have reduced have their wage spread out throughout the year. (Though you have hinted at this despite contradicting this earlier)

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    most teachers get paid 52 weeks per year
    Now you’re contradicting yourself again. All or most which is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    A teachers annual entry salary and incremental salary is greater than that of a Nurse - Nurses work "full time" and teachers work "term time"
    Term time, wonderful. So no exam time or correction work? Sure why bother to state all the facts. You can stop with your drivel of three months paid now. Prep time, lesson plans and notes are done during this time by most teachers I know. Repeat exams run into June also. I do appreciate when you say hundreds of days off though. Fantastic demonstration of your bias right there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    and by and large supplement their earnings in the "off term" and evenings performing other work such as JC/LC, grinds, courses, lessons, classes, camps, taxi driving etc etc
    You know this for a fact do you? Firstly you bemoan people who don’t work then you belittle those that work more. If they worked more surely they’d be paying tax on this extra work. Baffling! Unfortunately though you’re wrong again. I know many teachers. None of whom have another job during the Summer. But if they did I’d bet they’d be foreign homosexual black disabled travelers. Hate them I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    to further poo poo your argument - a temp teacher gets paid approx €40 per hour (as per INTO), a temp nurse gets paid €18.50 per hour + hols
    By your own words the nature of the beast means that they don’t get paid during the Summer so that’s how they supplement it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    What "catch all definition" are you referring to?
    Teachers. What level and type are you referring to?


    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    oh- and I'm glad that the corection money and other things I have highlighted are changing- maybe it wasnt such nonsense after all!!!!
    It saddens me that some many young teachers won’t (in most cases can’t) stay here in what is by in large good education system. It upsets me more that people like you are spouting ill informed spin. I hope you never fall from that horse of yours. It appears to be fairly high up there.

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  20. #45
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    Sorry Jim- I thought I had responded to most - alot of my responses were simply reposting what I had said before- because they are my points- you saying you disagree with them doesnt change my point!

    tell me exactly what you want me to respond to and I happily will!

    Sorry for misunderstanding your sarcastic (or not sarcastic) responses for actual responses- we disagree on lots it seems - which is healthy!

    Rates and sources below
    Teaching rates - €30,904 - €59,359 (TUI)
    Nursing Rates - €28,722 - €42,469 (INO)
    Teaching Temp- €36.50 primary (INTO) / €46.85 (TUI)
    Nursing Temp-€18.50 per hour (an bord altranas / Nurse on call)

    I dont have public accounts showing an increase/decrease in work carried out- but the fact that we can make 10's of thousands of public employees retire early, or have an employment ban for 3 years - without effecting service delivered show the scale for staff efficiencies people were previously delivering.

    As for incremental increases- we differ on opinon - I dont need to retort to a difference in opinion - you like jam, I like marmalade - I see incremental increases as a huge waste of money - I dont.

    You say performance monitoring could possibly cost us more money? I doubt it, never mind the wage & pension savings - it would drive performance, efficiency and reduce absenteeism (another bug bare)- or we can just keep paying people more money for no reason!

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    Again, NOBODY in the publi cservice gets an incremental rise without a performance appraisial. Every grade has a max scale too, so someone in the same grade for 15 years does not get any increments
    "We've seen you come, we'll see you go"

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    I used the phrase "most" teacher since my first post (it hasnt changed) - I fully agree young teachers on rolling contracts only get small amounts toward summer pay.

    Permanent teachers on the other hand are looked after far far better.

    I am not critiscising people who work more- I'm bemoaning the fact that permanent teachers (who are in the majority - hence the use of the word "most) get paid for the summer and do little or no work (for their paymaster anyway) in return for this payment. meanwhiel the DOE are paying millions to people (including these very same teachers) to supervise and correct exams.

    What they do on the side and tax paid (if any) is irrelevant

    I believe it should be madatory that these permanent teachers do this exam work as part of their contracts - you (and others) dont!

    Truth is it will never happen!

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dodge View Post
    Again, NOBODY in the publi cservice gets an incremental rise without a performance appraisial. Every grade has a max scale too, so someone in the same grade for 15 years does not get any increments
    absolutely there is a max scale and most reach it within 15-25 years - but therein lies another problem- after reaching the max scale- where is the incentive to improve the department?

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    So, now you want increments?
    "We've seen you come, we'll see you go"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dodge View Post
    So, now you want increments?
    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    but therein lies another problem- after reaching the max scale- where is the incentive to improve the department?
    I think I made it clear I dont!

  26. #51
    Super Moderator Jimdagym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    Sorry Jim- I thought I had responded to most - alot of my responses were simply reposting what I had said before- because they are my points- you saying you disagree with them doesnt change my point!

    tell me exactly what you want me to respond to and I happily will!
    If that is what this is going to be reduced to, then I am wasting my time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    I think I made it clear I dont!
    so you say stopping increments creates a problem...
    "We've seen you come, we'll see you go"

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  29. #53
    Martin Russell
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    I used the phrase "most" teacher since my first post (it hasnt changed) - I fully agree young teachers on rolling contracts only get small amounts toward summer pay.

    Permanent teachers on the other hand are looked after far far better.

    I am not critiscising people who work more- I'm bemoaning the fact that permanent teachers (who are in the majority - hence the use of the word "most) get paid for the summer and do little or no work (for their paymaster anyway) in return for this payment. meanwhiel the DOE are paying millions to people (including these very same teachers) to supervise and correct exams.

    What they do on the side and tax paid (if any) is irrelevant

    I believe it should be madatory that these permanent teachers do this exam work as part of their contracts - you (and others) dont!

    Truth is it will never happen!
    Are you reading your posts before you post at all? First you said teachers sit on their arse's during the Summer then they're taxi men and now you're saying it's irrelevant. I'm going to stop quoting you because it's easier just to let yourself keep proving you are wrong. Not all teachers get paid for corrections. Face the reality, near every opinion you have on this has been disproven. So maybe sign off with Caolan's truth instead of making your opinion sound absolute and infallable. Teacher's do nothing during the Summer? You have provided no evidence other than the rhetoric of your own anecdotal evidence again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dodge View Post
    so you say stopping increments creates a problem...
    I say having increments in the first place creates a problem!

    jobs should reward efficiency, innovation, honesty and hard work.

    *guaranteed pay increases every year (*I'd love to see the figures on how often people are refused increments following appraisals) result in people being complacent and stifle all the above.

    Why work hard, when getting by will do?

  31. #55
    Ian Gilzean mad dog's Avatar
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    look lads you all know everyone of us is wrong bar caolan

    on the other hand you could walk into your civil service job with your scrotum on your head and get away with it !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiggyRotten View Post
    Are you reading your posts before you post at all? First you said teachers sit on their arse's during the Summer then they're taxi men and now you're saying it's irrelevant. I'm going to stop quoting you because it's easier just to let yourself keep proving you are wrong. Not all teachers get paid for corrections. Face the reality, near every opinion you have on this has been disproven. So maybe sign off with Caolan's truth instead of making your opinion sound absolute and infallable. Teacher's do nothing during the Summer? You have provided no evidence other than the rhetoric of your own anecdotal evidence again.
    Can you tell me what teacher isnt paid for corrections?

    Despite you saying the contrary not a single thing I have said has been disproven.

    I think your missing the point completely with my taxi driver comment- the FACT is (and it is a fact) most teachers get paid by the state during the summer with no onus on them to provide a return for their work. by "moonlighting" as taxi drivers or samba soccer coaches or anything else is irrelevant to this fact (i am not trying to save samba soccer money)

    simple question -

    does it not strike you at all as gauling that we pay teachers millions (and we do regardles of what way yourself or anyone wants to spin it) when there is no kids to be thought- and then the DOE pays the same teachers (amongst others) thousands extra.......to work for them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mad dog View Post

    on the other hand you could walk into your civil service job with your scrotum on your head and get away with it !!!
    That's no great exaggeration. A teacher* (public service not civil service I know) in Pobalscoil in Palmerstown last year walked into class shitfaced drunk and started roaring and swearing abusively at pupils. One kid got up and got the Principal up to the classroom. Teacher was 'suspended pending investigation' at the end of which he was back teaching in the same school as though it had never happened. You do have to wonder what (bar kiddy fiddling) a teacher (once permanent) would actually have to do to get sacked.

    *If you happen to know his name don't post it here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    I say having increments in the first place creates a problem!

    jobs should reward efficiency, innovation, honesty and hard work.

    *guaranteed pay increases every year (*I'd love to see the figures on how often people are refused increments following appraisals) result in people being complacent and stifle all the above.

    Why work hard, when getting by will do?
    So even though I've clearly shown that performance appraisial happens, and linked to outside reports that show its working relatively well, you choose to ignore this and instead go abck to your own, baseless, opinion.
    "We've seen you come, we'll see you go"

  35. #59
    Martin Russell
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    Can you tell me what teacher isnt paid for corrections?

    Despite you saying the contrary not a single thing I have said has been disproven.

    I think your missing the point completely with my taxi driver comment- the FACT is (and it is a fact) most teachers get paid by the state during the summer with no onus on them to provide a return for their work. by "moonlighting" as taxi drivers or samba soccer coaches or anything else is irrelevant to this fact (i am not trying to save samba soccer money)

    simple question -

    does it not strike you at all as gauling that we pay teachers millions (and we do regardles of what way yourself or anyone wants to spin it) when there is no kids to be thought- and then the DOE pays the same teachers (amongst others) thousands extra.......to work for them?
    Seriously you're beating a dead horse here. Your opinions are not fact. You're opening your mouth to switch feet. A lot of teachers in vec's and the like dont get paid for corrections BTEC, ITEC, CIBTAC to name a few. But sure why include them, your anti teacher smug bullshit wouldn't be served by actually providing facts. Writing fact in caps does't make it true. Show me the figures about teachers getting paid during the Summer or STFU about it. You flip flop as soon as you're challanged on one of your opinions you pass off as fact. Simple question, do you genuinely think your approach to ps services would 1: improve the service 2: Save money?
    Last edited by BiggyRotten; 2nd February 2012 at 04:13 PM.

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    Super Moderator Jimdagym's Avatar
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    I think Caolon is trying to say to pay the teachers their 12 months pay over 9 months so that they can sign on for 3 months. Or did I miss something????

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