maybe i missed something - where did you show clearly that performance appraisal happens?Originally Posted by Dodge
My favourite bit is- "its working relatively well" - of course it is, because noone getting increments actually has to create the wealth to pay them
And genuine question- when was the last time you heard of someone not being awarded their increment?
Last edited by Caolan; 2nd February 2012 at 06:18 PM.
Genuine answer -
1 - yes -
1a- Clerical workers working a normal working week instead of 33.75 hours
1b- the same teachers who correct the major exams now are still doing it, jus the cost is absorbed into their normal pay (not extra)
1c- a central Gardai court representation unit attending court instead of each individual Garda having 5 hours of overtime, Gardai over 50 (who retire on approx 50% wages) doing the desk work & manning stations instead of hiring lay people to do & still paying pensions.
1d- Reduction in numbers receiving medical cards
2 - yes - I havent proposed thing that would result in a reduction in services
How many times do I need to say it- every teacher who does it gets paid for marking the JC/LC
Every supervisor who does it gets paid for supervising the LC/JC
Most* teachers get paid for the summer and do not work
*By most I mean not all- but the majority
I'm not anti teacher- nor anti garda, or anti cleric, or anti medical card.
I dont have a teachers contract to hand- but teachers in Ireland get an annual salary paid over 52 weeks (or 12 months I believe it is) - teachers working temp positions get holiday pay of 56% (as per TUI website)
I havent flip flopped on anything - if I have misunderstood something and am proven wrong- I'll accept it- but anything else is a differing of opinion, which isnt a bad thing!
Last edited by Caolan; 2nd February 2012 at 06:05 PM.
You just don't get it do you? FACT: Not every teacher gets paid during the Summer (you stated they do). Fact: Not every teacher gets paid for corrections (you stated they do). Fact: Not every teacher moonlights as a taxi man (you stated they do). FACT: Teacher's work during the Summer and (take a seat now) at home out of class hours (you stated they don't). It's probably easier for you to generalise though, makes your bullshit statements easier to swallow. You can say what you want as many times as you want. I'm not engaging with somone that wants someone to hear them but refuses to listen. Yes you have flip flopped and been proven wrong. This would be clear to you if you read other people's posts instead of wanking into a bowl of HB vanilla ice cream to your posts. Good day at the office?
Did you read the report I linked to?
Jesus fucking christ. That was my term. You can read all the vast independent reports for their choice of language. And as for no one in the public service 'creating wealth'. patheticMy favourite bit is- "its working relatively well" - of course it is, because noone getting increments actually has to create the wealth to pay them
I know of a few cases every year. Most get theirs, because most deserve theirs. but you'll choose to not believe me, no doubtAnd genuine question- when was the last time you heard of someone not being awarded their increment?
"We've seen you come, we'll see you go"
You haven't accepted any of the times people have pointed out where you were wrong on basic facts. Not opinions, facts.
Read the thread for these examples
"We've seen you come, we'll see you go"
didnt see the link (its a long thread)
or as per the dept of finance in the 2016 steering committee
in many instances appraisal systems focused on last year’s performance and were little more than a ‘fill out the form’ exercise
we can throw reports at each other.
What else can they be appraised on? Future work rate?
"We've seen you come, we'll see you go"
Whereabouts is that? Redarmy and Biggy have both given me different "facts" on the same thing - these facts differ from what the TUI/ASTI publish.
People seem to take a leaning on my use of the word "most"
Jim said he believes the figures for medical cards are 1/3 Irish citizens have amedical card- I thought it was nearly 50% - I accepted his argument (but still believe the figure is too high)
what facts have I been wrong with? I've provided figures where asked regarding teachers, nurses pay and teachers inactive days?
Read the thread. I, and others, have pointed many out to you.
"We've seen you come, we'll see you go"
I never said that - your makin it up to suit your argument
I said every teacher who does JC/LC corrections get paid for it - this is a fact (you can apply to do it too if you want)
that a gross distortion of what I said - I never said every teacher did- I siad it is one of the many things teachers do in their spare time to get extra €€€ (as they are entitled to do)
If you say so- NONE of my teacher friends do a tap in the summer - (most go travelling for months around the world) - but if you say so - I cant prove otherwise and you cant prove what you say to be true either.
Oh the Irony - you havent got a single thing I said correct!
mature!
where have I been proven wrong? by you telling me to wank into a HB vanilla Ice cream?
Did you do it though?
I have and am genuinly struggling to see what "facts" I have got wrong and been corrected on? as I said- I accept Jims figures for medical cards on his word.
Ok- you say appraisals take place to earn your increments- I have my opinion on the validity of these, but I take your word that they are a fair and true reflection on performance. I'd like more information on what the performance parameters are- but thats another days work!
This thread should be printed out and framed. Absolute comic gold.
One love *** One club
each member of staff have their own. From top down strategy statement lads to business plan, leads to role profiles. Each has their own. Read the reports.
"We've seen you come, we'll see you go"
My other half is a secondary teacher who qualified nearly 20 years ago. She has NEVER had a permanent contract, as the Dept simply stopped giving out permanent contracts years ago - all that's available are temporary / maternity cover contracts.
She gets paid for a maximum of 22 teaching hours a week i.e. classroom time. If she's sick, as she has been for the last few days, she doesn't get paid. She doesn't get paid for the time spent preparing lessons or correcting homework. Now if it was your kid, I'd imagine you'd want the teacher to spend even just 5 minutes checking your kid's homework - let's say there's 20 kids in each class, so now you're up to 1 hour 40 minutes correcting on top of 45 minutes in the class. But the class hasn't been prepared yet. Allow say half an hour for that. So that's three hours' actual work for each of those 22 teaching hours. Do the fucking maths.
She doesn't get paid in the summer. She corrects the LC Honours Spanish in July. Far from there being thousands of teachers doing this, there's 8 or 10 of them to do the whole country. Geddit, 8 or 10. OK, so Spanish is a minority-interest subject compared to others, bigger subjects would obviously have more. This typically involves working from about 8am until 10pm seven days a week for three to four weeks, being at the beck and call of the supervisor at all hours, having to practically ask permission to leave the house for more than an hour. She gets paid by the paper, not by the hour. She doesn't get paid at all in June or August.
That's the life of a teacher. And some people call that cushy.
That can't be right Doc, Caolan said they all get paid. And he has never been wrong on facts and figures before. :-)
WWS - Remembered Always
Dont let what i actually said get in the way of a good snipe billy!
I said Most get paid- I reiteratted the word MOST in this thread making it abundantly clear numerous times it is not every teacher who gets paid summer holidays..
Dr Nightdub's wife isnt permanent- obviously she (and others) dont fit into the "most" category - so for the purposes of my argument her situation is irrelevant as she hasnt got a permanant position for whatever reason (i have three very close friends who are teachers in the greater dublin area and all have gotten permanent positions since they graduated in the last 5 years) -
I amnt getting into an argument on teachers correcting homework after class or preparing the next days work and that kind of stuff- its totally irrelevant to this argument (as I said before, i have no beef with teachers, both my kids have excellent teachers and always have)
it doesnt detract from the fact (and it remains a fact) that the state spends millions on paying people at JC/LC for supervision and correction (I spoke to one teacher yesterday who said it's worth nearly €4,000 to her, but its a hard slog as they get a huge amout of papers to correct)
To be honest Doc that doesn't tally with my experiences. One of my exes (about 11-12 years back now) was a Secondary Teacher that had only been teaching a couple of years and she was permanent with all the benefits. Are you saying your missus has been teaching continuously in Ireland for 20 years and was never offered a permanent contract at any stage? I genuinely find that hard to believe unless there's some other factor involved. I know at one stage (back in the boom times when contract renewals were all but guaranteed) young teachers were actually better off on a September - June contract than accepting a permanent contract as they'd less hassle picking up summer work and usually wouldn't be roped into supervising and correcting Junior/Leaving Certs.
Just to balance that I should say I lived with a secondary teacher a couple of years back (as in she was my tenant, we weren't shacked up) who was on contracts and I will say she had it tough. Moved in with me in mid-November when she got a job filling in for a teacher on maternity leave, her first paid employment since the previous June when her last contract (in Cavan - and she was from Galway) had ended. Her spell in Kildare ended the following June and it was the end of October before she got another post - again in another part of the country. I remember her getting up a few mornings to go into work when the poor mare was absolutely dying with the flu but she was too scared of being let go if she didn't go in (and she probably couldn't afford to miss work either as she wouldn't be paid).
Not arguing that Doc but the system does depend to a large extent on the teacher treating their job as a vocation. It doesn't have any mechanism to reward those that put in that voluntary effort or penalise those that don't bother. Whatever about the theory, in practice a teacher's prospects of being made permanent and being promoted are still more influenced by personal considerations than actual achievements. The ex I mentioned was very conscientious and would slave away for hours at home correcting. My tenant told me she got most of hers done between classes in the staff room and I rarely saw her correcting much at home tbh. Same job, two very different interpretations of what it entailed. As for the preparation, once you take the hit of preparing it once for a given year/class, it doesn't take a great deal of altering in future years.
That's the life of a teacher not lucky enough to be on a permanent contract. How professionally a permanent teacher behaves and how cushy their job is largely comes down to their own conscience. There are teachers that literally don't give a shite about anything but their pay packets. Realistically, bar falling foul of a definition of gross misconduct that's way below industry standard, they cannot be removed from their posts. Any attempt at altering that over the years has always been fiercely resisted by teachers. Why anybody believes such teachers should have a guaranteed job for life is beyond me but protecting the interests of the rotten apples (and I accept they're a small minority) reflects poorly on the professional standards of every apple in the barrel.
Get off the internet ya dope.
I find this very hard to believe, i know young teachers nowadays find it hard doing temp work here and there and not knowing at the end of each summer if they will get the call back for september and they're the lucky young teachers who get in to jobs ,
but 20 years of it doesnt sound right to me and if shes not getting a very decent wage from it shes not a very clever teacher (last part not in a personal way doc)
Its not that rare in fairness lads. Most schools haven't got the budget for full time staff. its a bit like the LOI where clubs only offer 1 year contracts because they know that there'll be someone availbale at a similar standard every year, so why waste a full time wage on them. For primary teachers, they basically have to wait for someone to retirebefore a full time vacancy arises
Only have to look here to see there's close to 50,000 teachers registered
http://www.educationposts.ie/
"We've seen you come, we'll see you go"
Nowadays perhaps Dodge but it wasn't like that all through the Celtic Tiger years. I know a good few secondary school teachers that only started working in the last 10-12 years and they're all permanent now.
have no idea what yous are talking about but im never eating hb icecream again.. carry on
Last edited by saintjoey; 6th February 2012 at 11:16 AM.
With Bucka to lead us sure no one could beat us!
thought they did computers
That's why their ice-cream tastes so bad. (Ba-dum-tish!)thought they did computers
Oh, and to Caolan. I think you're misunderstanding (and you don't seem to be the only one in this country to do so over the past few years, in fairness) the role of the Civil and Public Service. It's not fucking there to create wealth!! The clue is in the title. Service.
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