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Thread: Bondholders Get their billions

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    Ian Gilzean mad dog's Avatar
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    Bondholders Get their billions

    well today is the day the Unsecure bondholders get their 1.25 billion back
    what a joke , the government of today are now on a par with the last group of wasters
    the hold think would make your blood boil .supposedly nobody knows who these losers are but The big surprise, however, is that the two biggest bondholders are Irish Banks. The people of Ireland have already put 7 billion in these two banks but they then screw us twice by lending back our own money at higher interest rates. Imagine working class taxpayers delivering billions at the front door of the bank and then the directors scurrying around the back door to lend us back our own money and to call for more sacrifices. It is time to end this madness now.

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    I don't think you get it Mad Dog. The day we called in the IMF and ECB, we lost our fiscal independence. So long as we need the assistance of the Troika, our government will exist only to do what they tell them to do, regardless of who's in power. We're too far down the road of bailing out the banks to stop now - if we were for burning bondholders we should have done it 60 Billion Euro ago. As it goes the IMF would have no real issue with us burning unsecured bondholders but the ECB won't have it because many of its major stakeholders hold unsecured bonds in other European banks. That the ECB's stance on this also benefits the fuckers here who got us into this mess only adds salt to the wounds. Who pays the piper calls the tune and we literally couldn't get the money to run the country from any other source and are 16 Billion a year short of coming up with it ourselves. It's shit but that's how it is.

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    Ian Gilzean mad dog's Avatar
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    course i get gaz , doesnt mean i cant say its a joke

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    John McDonnell
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    Realistically, it is the IMF/ECB who are repaying these bondholders. We now owe them the money instead of the bondholders. Our overall debt doesn't change, it's just a case of the ECB/IMF stepping into the bondholders shoes as they don't want them to be burned. The chances of us ever being able to pay back all the money we owe to the ECB/IMF are pretty remote so there will be a default/write down somewhere along the way. At the moment it looks like the ECB/IMF are happy enough to pay our debts to bondholders rather than raise fears in the markets that you might actually lose your money if you give billions to broken economies like ours. We're a tiny piece in the whole eurozone debt problem and its easier to kick the can down the road to keep funds investing in the euro.

    Our big job is to get ourselves into a position where our deficit is coming down to a level where we are not totally dependent on th IMF/ECB and then we might cut a decent deal in terms of debt. Unfortunately that is where the current government are falling down. The constant hits to peoples take home pay and the refusal of banks to lend to businesses and reasonably solid individuals is shrinking the economy rather than growing it which is what is needed to reduce the deficit. At some stage we are going to have to take the knife to our social welfare and public spending budgets (which are still miles ahead of our UK and most European counterparts). Waiting for teachers/nurses to retire and not replacing them is a stupid way of cutting the spending. If we have to cut public sector jobs we need to focus on the skill sets that are vital and the people who are not essential. At least try to make the cuts in areas that will cause the least damage. Practically every business in the country did this two or three years ago so you'd wonder why the government aren't trying to do it this way.

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    Martin Russell Red125's Avatar
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    Correction.... the German fund managers got paid......its like the Irish running a grand national that pays out on every losing horse to the investors ( punters) and not just your money back but at least some sort of odds.

    Germans run the ECB they're going to make sure their banks dont go down to our detriment and its only the beginning.

    Could you see German workers losing their jobs and money and ensuring other countries banks got paid for bad investments ?

    Its an absolute sick joke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red125 View Post
    Correction.... the German fund managers got paid......its like the Irish running a grand national that pays out on every losing horse to the investors ( punters) and not just your money back but at least some sort of odds.

    Germans run the ECB they're going to make sure their banks dont go down to our detriment and its only the beginning.

    Could you see German workers losing their jobs and money and ensuring other countries banks got paid for bad investments ?

    Its an absolute sick joke.
    No point telling a story and leaving out the opening part (ie how we got into this mess). As a nation we fucked up the golden opportunity handed us through EU funding (of which the German taxpayer was by far the biggest single contributor by the way) through our own greed and delusions of grandeur. We can't blame the Germans (or any other nation) for that and can't expect their sympathy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red125 View Post
    Correction.... the German fund managers got paid......its like the Irish running a grand national that pays out on every losing horse to the investors ( punters) and not just your money back but at least some sort of odds.

    Germans run the ECB they're going to make sure their banks dont go down to our detriment and its only the beginning.

    Could you see German workers losing their jobs and money and ensuring other countries banks got paid for bad investments ?

    Its an absolute sick joke.
    Ireland pay the Troika something like 3% for something like 70 billion

    Without the Troika we would have told Anglo bondholders to feck off in the process saving approx 20-25billion....but we would have paid 8-10% on the 70 billion from the troika (which we would still ahve needed).

    Essentially we used the pension reserve fund to pay Anglo B/H and the money from the Troika is now paying for our rediculously cushy welfare system, our €2 billion per year bill for medical cards and our hyped up, under worked, reform shy and over paid public service.

    Because its the Troika we get the money from and not the markets we save multiples of what Anglo costs us.

    Added to that -the Troika have forced this country into cuts that no elected government could possibly do if they werent being forced to/able to blame someone else (and I say that in a good way)

    Ireland is still losing 10-20 billion per year and its not because of ze germans.

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    our 2 billion per year bill for medical cards and our hyped up, under worked, reform shy and over paid public service.
    Wow!!!
    No need for extra words

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny View Post
    Wow!!!
    No need for extra words

    Are you telling me there isnt something wrong (and unequitable) with a system that gives medical cards to nearly 50% of the population (there are nearly 2,000,000 medical cards active in the state?)

    Everyone should get access to good medical care - but an enormous amount of people with medical cards can and should pay (and I'd include retired people getting pensions higher than the average wage)

    for example- (according to yesterdays paper) a teacher with 30 years service gets a pension of approx 25,000 per year...and a full medical card

    A retired banker or senior civil servant with a pension of 100,000-900,000 per year gets a medical card

    I sacrifice other luxuries and go to work everyday in order to carry medical insurance - others who refuse well paid work to stay o the social, leave good jobs or have generous social income and benefits don't have to make any sacrifice for the service.

    and to re-iterate, people who genuinely cannot pay or access healthcare should 100% be supported!

    Hyped up public service

    for starters

    Clerical Workers
    Most clerical jobs in the public service demand the employee work 33.75 hours per week (start 9- finish 5.00, less 1.25hrs break= working day of 6.75 hours) - not to mention the sick leave and guaranteed pension perks.

    Croke park should demand 39 contact hours per week which would increase productivity by 16%

    Gardai
    Gardai and Firemen retire from active duty on pension at 50 years of age (17 years before normal retirement age) - the country pays the pension and then pays someone to replace the gardai.

    Croke Park should demand Gardai work until retirement in the thousands of administrative positions worked by lay people or as representatives for other gardai in court (other gardai are currently paid generous rates for appearing in court)

    Teachers

    as we all know Teachers enjoy hundreds of days off per year...fully paid!

    Most teachers collect extra money for summer courses, mid term courses, evening classes, and my 3 big bug bares Correcting LC/JC exams, supervising JC/LC exams and "yard duty".

    It is incredulous that teachers are not contracted to perform the LC/JC roles as part of their paid employment. we pay millions to teachers for sitting on their arses for months during summer and mid terms, and then pay extra for them to perform duties at mock exams and LC/JC exams and for supervising at break times. Nice gig for the teachers and the unions!

    Never mind the increments awarded to public servants (pay increases for...eh....nothing!)



    We give out about the Troika hoisting these cuts and expenses on us when the biggest culprits is ourselves

    Anglo is a once off cost (and its hard to take)

    But the state of our Social Spending and the return on investment in public services is appalling.

    Social support is for the needy - not for the lazy or irresponsible.

    Public workers by and large are good people, and understandable wont give up cushy positions easily- but the celtic tiger hangover in these 2 areas are costing us far far more than the troika ever will.
    Last edited by Caolan; 28th January 2012 at 01:45 PM.

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  12. #10
    Super Moderator Jimdagym's Avatar
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    Breath in....

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    Are you telling me there isnt something wrong (and unequitable) with a system that gives medical cards to nearly 50% of the population (there are nearly 2,000,000 medical cards active in the state?)
    The state's figures are 1 in 3. Of all people, if giving numbers, give the right ones. It weakens your arguement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    Everyone should get access to good medical care - but an enormous amount of people with medical cards can and should pay (and I'd include retired people getting pensions higher than the average wage)
    We have a public health service readily available. All citizens have access to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    for example- (according to yesterdays paper) a teacher with 30 years service gets a pension of approx 25,000 per year...and a full medical card

    A retired banker or senior civil servant with a pension of 100,000-900,000 per year gets a medical card
    I caant even believe that you are lumping them two in together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    I sacrifice other luxuries and go to work everyday in order to carry medical insurance - others who refuse well paid work to stay o the social, leave good jobs or have generous social income and benefits don't have to make any sacrifice for the service.
    What do you want, a medal for fucking working???

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    and to re-iterate, people who genuinely cannot pay or access healthcare should 100% be supported!
    Who defines "genuine"? That is the system we have in place now, its the implementation that is off kilter,

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    Hyped up public service

    for starters

    Clerical Workers
    Most clerical jobs in the public service demand the employee work 33.75 hours per week (start 9- finish 5.00, less 1.25hrs break= working day of 6.75 hours) - not to mention the sick leave and guaranteed pension perks.

    Croke park should demand 39 contact hours per week which would increase productivity by 16%
    If your boss or my boss made me stay an extra 5.25 hours a week for no extra pay, that would in no way equal to an extra 16% efficiancy. In fact, it would probably have a detrimental effect on the 33.75 hours I had been working hard for previously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    Gardai
    Gardai and Firemen retire from active duty on pension at 50 years of age (17 years before normal retirement age) - the country pays the pension and then pays someone to replace the gardai.
    Eh, recruitment embargo???

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    Croke Park should demand Gardai work until retirement in the thousands of administrative positions worked by lay people or as representatives for other gardai in court (other gardai are currently paid generous rates for appearing in court)
    Right, so you want to sack people who are experienced in their roles to fill a position for a gaurd who is probably on a much higher wage and has no experience?
    Jobs for the boys much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    Teachers

    as we all know Teachers enjoy hundreds of days off per year...fully paid!

    Most teachers collect extra money for summer courses, mid term courses, evening classes, and my 3 big bug bares Correcting LC/JC exams, supervising JC/LC exams and "yard duty".

    It is incredulous that teachers are not contracted to perform the LC/JC roles as part of their paid employment. we pay millions to teachers for sitting on their arses for months during summer and mid terms, and then pay extra for them to perform duties at mock exams and LC/JC exams and for supervising at break times. Nice gig for the teachers and the unions!
    Teachers deserve every penny they get, how many wealthy teachers do you know? Seriously? Honest answer. Not one teacher in this country is in it for the money.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    Never mind the increments awarded to public servants (pay increases for...eh....nothing!)
    Service increments, really? So you are on the same wage since the day you started your job? Because I am not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    We give out about the Troika hoisting these cuts and expenses on us when the biggest culprits is ourselves
    What sort of moron is walking around out there thinking this is anyone but our fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    Anglo is a once off cost (and its hard to take)

    But the state of our Social Spending and the return on investment in public services is appalling.
    Yep, its public spending that got us into this mess....

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    Social support is for the needy - not for the lazy or irresponsible.
    Sure they can always eat cake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    Public workers by and large are good people,
    How very nice of you to say

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    and understandable wont give up cushy positions easily
    Name one person in empolyment in this country who does?
    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    but the celtic tiger hangover in these 2 areas are costing us far far more than the troika ever will.
    What two area's? You said 1, "Hyped up public service".
    Nevertheless I would love to see you back that up with numbers. The current cost of clerical, teachers and guards wages, versus an effeciant level (according to you) against the total cost of Anglo. You think, even over 20 or 30 years, anglo is lesser?

    Interestingly, you are targeting what every governmnt promises not to, front line services. Sure the nurses and firemen can live on less too while you are at it.

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    jim you must have started that post at 9 this morning....very impressive quoting

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    Teachers

    as we all know Teachers enjoy hundreds of days off per year...fully paid!

    Most teachers collect extra money for summer courses, mid term courses, evening classes, and my 3 big bug bares Correcting LC/JC exams, supervising JC/LC exams and "yard duty".

    It is incredulous that teachers are not contracted to perform the LC/JC roles as part of their paid employment. we pay millions to teachers for sitting on their arses for months during summer and mid terms, and then pay extra for them to perform duties at mock exams and LC/JC exams and for supervising at break times. Nice gig for the teachers and the unions!

    Never mind the increments awarded to public servants (pay increases for...eh....nothing!)
    I can tell you for a fact this shit is coming out of your hole. Not bothered explaining it, but ya should read up on what teachers get and what their job includes cos your clueless.

    As a teacher once said to me, you dont get into teaching for the money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by red-army View Post
    I can tell you for a fact this shit is coming out of your hole. Not bothered explaining it, but ya should read up on what teachers get and what their job includes cos your clueless.

    As a teacher once said to me, you dont get into teaching for the money.
    Where did I say teachers are loaded?

    Most Teachers get paid 52 weeks a year- but don't work June/July/august

    The department of education pay these same teachers (amongst others) to supervise and correct state exams.

    I am not demanding pay cuts, redundancies, levies - I am putting forward a radical proposal that would result in people who are paid money, being asked to work for it!

    You wanna enlighten me on where I am gone wrong?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    Where did I say teachers are loaded?

    Most Teachers get paid 52 weeks a year- but don't work June/July/august

    The department of education pay these same teachers (amongst others) to supervise and correct state exams.

    I am not demanding pay cuts, redundancies, levies - I am putting forward a radical proposal that would result in people who are paid money, being asked to work for it!

    You wanna enlighten me on where I am gone wrong?
    They get serious deductions on their wages to cover the months they get off, 11 to be percise. Also "these same teachers (amongst others)". Na, the teachers that wana supervise amd correct put their names forward, and a draw is done. Only a small % ofthe teachers that offer to do it, get to do it. So i dont know where the amongst others is coming from when not even all teachers have choice to do it.

    Are you saying teachers dont earn their money?

    You can bet for certain, if they worked summers, their wages be alot higher! So i think the 3 months off is taken into account

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    No mention of politicians time off so that must be ok. Oh wait they are working in their constituencies. :-)

    No offence Caolan, but you are talking through your proverbial.......... Again. :-)

    Radical ideas my arse......... ideas and ideals that will break the fabric of society and destroy any chance this country had of getting back on its feet. And i have worked, paid tax, got pay cuts galore. And just to give you some ammo I have pension from the state for time serving the country.

    The public sector and social care system destroying the country is a media myth driven by a political agenda.
    Last edited by BillyG; 28th January 2012 at 08:06 PM.
    WWS - Remembered Always

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    Jaysus jim- Siptu would give you a job in no time!

    You managed to retort things I didn't even say, scaremongering about attacking frontline services!

    You also managed to sarcastically agree with half my post.

    My public service points are pure and simply a private sector mind looking at idiotic shortcomings negotiated in public partnership (short week) or "it's always been this way" (gardai and teachers)

    I'm not attacking teachers, gardai, firemen or people with a medical card. I'm attacking the inflexibility, inefficiency and expense of things that could only occur in the public sector (or old style unionised companies)

    I'm attacking a system that believes 33% (i thought it was 1.9 million med cards, I stand corrected if you say different) of the country be deemed vulnerable.

    My point is reform in social entitlements and the public sector could have meant (or reduced the impact of) the troika in the first place.

    Oh, and you'd be surprised how many people absolve themselves of any involvement in the current mess!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    Oh, and you'd be surprised how many people absolve themselves of any involvement in the current mess!
    You don't find the irony in this statement, considering you're pretty much saying it could've been avoided if civil servants worked an hour longer and teachers did more during the summer?
    "We've seen you come, we'll see you go"

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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyG View Post
    No mention of politicians time off so that must be ok. Oh wait they are working in their constituencies. :-)

    No offence Caolan, but you are talking through your proverbial.......... Again. :-)

    Radical ideas my arse......... ideas and ideals that will break the fabric of society and destroy any chance this country had of getting back on its feet. And i have worked, paid tax, got pay cuts galore. And just to give you some ammo I have pension from the state for time serving the country.

    The public sector and social care system destroying the country is a media myth driven by a political agenda.
    Who said it destroys the country? It's one of a number of areas we need to address, Including political expenses!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dodge View Post
    You don't find the irony in this statement, considering you're pretty much saying it could've been avoided if civil servants worked an hour longer and teachers did more during the summer?
    Union speak again- I never said that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    My point is reform in social entitlements and the public sector could have meant (or reduced the impact of) the troika in the first place.
    Here's waht you said.

    Not sure why you think its union speak either
    "We've seen you come, we'll see you go"

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    Super Moderator Jimdagym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dodge View Post
    Here's waht you said.

    Not sure why you think its union speak either
    It's the equivelant of callIng people commies to discredit them.


    Caolon, I am not going to address your reply to me because, it's basically bollix. Address points I made instead of generalisms and this may even break out into a discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dodge View Post
    Here's waht you said.

    Not sure why you think its union speak either
    Twisting peoples words in order to Make dramatic assumptions without actually addressing any argument = union speak (that's what they do)

    I really didn't mean for (another) private v public debate. I think our social system is too generous to some (myself included with child benefit) and too small for others (carers and the disabled)

    It galls me some of the inefficiencies in the public service. teachers, clerical workers and Gardai and their friends/colleagues obviously will disagree with what I said- that's their prerogative, I have mine.

    We are losing 20 billion- and simple ideas where people are asked to earn their money or give a little more in return for security and stability shouldn't be dismissed so casually.

    In my view anyone

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimdagym View Post
    It's the equivelant of callIng people commies to discredit them.


    Caolon, I am not going to address your reply to me because, it's basically bollix. Address points I made instead of generalisms and this may even break out into a discussion.
    Im not as good at the quotey thing as you, hence my general response- sorry I didn't quote each sentence and link it to my retort!

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    Super Moderator Jimdagym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    Im not as good at the quotey thing as you, hence my general response- sorry I didn't quote each sentence and link it to my retort!
    You didnt quote any, and spoke of nothing specific.

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    "I really didn't mean for (another) private v public debate. I think our social system is too generous to some (myself included with child benefit) and too small for others (carers and the disabled)"

    Maybe child benefit should be means tested, but until it is, it is optional. If you feel it is too generous and you are lucky enough not to depend on it, stop collecting it. If you were to do that you would, by example, demonstrate a real belief in your arguements, which without actions are only waffle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    Twisting peoples words in order to Make dramatic assumptions without actually addressing any argument
    Im not as good at the quotey thing as you, hence my general response
    Thats pretty much what you do. I've been over this ground with you a million times, down to every minute detail. You usually ignore the points made, as you have with Jimdagym
    "We've seen you come, we'll see you go"

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    im glad i started this thread , but i blame gaz

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    Mbabazi Palmerstown Saint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaz View Post
    No point telling a story and leaving out the opening part (ie how we got into this mess). As a nation we fucked up the golden opportunity handed us through EU funding (of which the German taxpayer was by far the biggest single contributor by the way) through our own greed and delusions of grandeur. We can't blame the Germans (or any other nation) for that and can't expect their sympathy.
    When you say 'As a Nation', do you mean the government? The property developers? The Speculators? The ordinary people? Because I refuse to be lumped in with 'The Nation' (whatever that means), because most people didn't speculate, cause over inflated property prices to rocket or caused the greedy banks to go into melt down. I wouldn't consider myself greedy, I don't have delusions of grandeur and have always lived within my means. But I'm paying for other peoples wreckless behavior. I've listened to that shite off that Blueshirt Kenny and wanted to slap him, and now it seems to be the mantra and we only have ourselves to blame cos we were greedy? Eh, I wasn't greedy like many ordinary joe soaps. What people should be asking is why our government gave and still gives away our nation resources? We could wipe out our National debt overnight and become a rich Nation. Why is no one up in arms about this?

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    Last edited by Palmerstown Saint; 30th January 2012 at 10:37 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caolan View Post
    Where did I say teachers are loaded?

    Most Teachers get paid 52 weeks a year- but don't work June/July/august




    You wanna enlighten me on where I am gone wrong?
    Right there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palmerstown Saint View Post
    When you say 'As a Nation', do you mean the government? The property developers? The Speculators? The ordinary people?
    I mean all of us as a whole PS. The rest of the world doesn’t differentiate between which sections of society were more or less to blame. They look upon Ireland as a single entity, much the same as most of us here regard Greece or Iceland. Like it or not it’s how we’re viewed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palmerstown Saint View Post
    Because I refuse to be lumped in with 'The Nation' (whatever that means), because most people didn't speculate, cause over inflated property prices to rocket or caused the greedy banks to go into melt down.
    I’d actually take issue with the essence (if not literal meaning) of that assertion. For sure the madness was lead by a trinity of senior bankers, property developers and politicians. And it’s probably true to say that ‘most people’ didn’t hop aboard the crazy train (as in fewer than 50% were wreckless). But a sufficiently large number of ‘ordinary people’ – many in traditionally working class occupations like tradesmen and retail workers - borrowed way beyond their means to buy second (and in some cases third, fourth, etc) houses, stretched themselves to the max on several credit cards to change their cars every other year, needlessly remortgaged their houses so they could have cash on the hip for a few years and live like big time charlies, charged customers extortionate fees for their services through pure greed or demanded unfeasible wage rises from employers year upon year. Granted, not everybody did all these things but if hundreds of thousands of people in this country are being honest they did at least some of these things, without a second’s thought as to how this would affect our competitiveness as a country or ever stopping to question whether this unshakable faith in credit was actually based upon any logic. It’s in no small part due to the fact that there are literally hundreds of thousands of loans here that are worth far less than the assets they’re secured against are worth as well as those that have had to be written off as bad debt from exactly this mentality that our banking system went into meltdown. I don’t accept that most people that find themselves in serious arrears as a consequence of such actions didn’t know what was happening – that would be a bigger insult by implying we’re a nation morons. I believe a hell of a lot of people in this country adopted a convenient ‘live for the moment’ philosophy during the Celtic Tiger years and are now living with the consequences. ‘This country has failed me’ I’ve heard from many people in this boat now, when 8-10 years ago they didn’t give a flying fuck about anyone other themselves, let alone the welfare of the country. The sad part is that we all have to pay for their extravagance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palmerstown Saint View Post
    I wouldn't consider myself greedy, I don't have delusions of grandeur and have always lived within my means. But I'm paying for other peoples wreckless behavior.
    Snap. But would you not agree that we both know an awful lot of people from similar backgrounds to ourselves who had no reasonable grounds for expecting to live any more extravagantly than you or I but who carried on like they’d won the lotto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Palmerstown Saint View Post
    What people should be asking is why our government gave and still gives away our nation resources? We could wipe out our National debt overnight and become a rich Nation. Why is no one up in arms about this?

    http://youtu.be/76VOnzXQMsU
    Probably because it’s based on sensationalist exaggerations and presented in a hugely disingenuous manner. It’s true that the Irish people currently receive no money whatsoever from our offshore oil supplies. They neglect to mention however that the reason for that is that we simply haven’t got any oilfields in production! Our government would take 25% of any oil produced but despite 300 exploratory drills (at 50 Million a pop in today’s prices) only Rossport has been deemed worth exploiting and we all know where that’s at. Over the last 40 years private companies have spent over 3 Billion Euro looking for oil off our Atlantic coast and to date not one drop of crude has come ashore. Only 4 viable gas fields have been found. The riposte below is from an umbrella organization representing companies drilling offshore. While it’s obviously biased, I’ll leave it to the reader’s discretion which version they feel tallies better with reality:

    http://www.iooa.ie/securing-the-future-page41390.html

    I’ve little doubt if the government had set up an oil exploration company in 1970 to do all this drilling instead of letting foreign oil companies take that financial risk, the same people that made this video would be making one about magic beans and highlighting how billions had been denied our health service and welfare systems by pursuing pipe dreams out in the ocean.
    Last edited by Gaz; 31st January 2012 at 05:26 PM.

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