Croly

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Originally Posted by Rathfarnham_Saint

I agree that personnel isn't the be all and end all but Fenlon is a very good manager on top of that as well. I believe if you gave him our job, the Dundalk job or the Rovers job at the start of this season he still would have won the league without spending.

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I dont think he is tactically that good at all. and i think his european performances have shown that ( apart from one very good year). In Europe he didnt have financial muscle or a team far superior to the competition and he failed. In Derry he had a mediocre team and could do nothing with them.
Okay he will have a the biggest budget etc, but i think Bucko's team will be technically better and technically better as a unit too. So it will come down to how superior his squad are, and i'm not sure it will be that much better. if you had two equal teams, i would take Bucko to manage them over the midget

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Originally Posted by Rathfarnham_Saint

I agree that personnel isn't the be all and end all but Fenlon is a very good manager on top of that as well. I believe if you gave him our job, the Dundalk job or the Rovers job at the start of this season he still would have won the league without spending.

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Not sure you can say that at all. Every league he's won has been with the top spenders.

I'm not suggesting he isn't a very good manager (far from it, I think he's terrific) but he's shown with Derry that he isn't perfect. Mistakes can be mde

I'd be very surprised if Bermos not one of the players who got a 2 year deal with us at the end of last season! Iv no worries about our players leaving as I believe we have who we want tied down

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Not sure you can say that at all. Every league he's won has been with the top spenders.

I'm not suggesting he isn't a very good manager (far from it, I think he's terrific) but he's shown with Derry that he isn't perfect. Mistakes can be mde

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His record at Derry is blown way out of proportion. Only his second ever managerial job, 7 years ago, 11 games over 5 months, 4 loses. We lost 3 of or first 11 games last season for instance.

He will have the biggest budget for the next few years. In LOI terms it's the equivalent of Mourinho going to Man City. They'll walk the league next year.

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Originally Posted by oleguer presas i renom

Likewise with Forrester. For all his talent, he blows hot and cold, and looked at objectively someone like Billy Dennehy is probably a more effective footballer. Darren Meenan had a better season than him last year. Not that I'd want to see either of them leave.

The point is, personnel is not the be all and end all.

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Say what you want about Forrester but in the last 3 seasons hes scored 25 league goals which is a great return for a player who plays out wide

2012 - 6
2013 - 9
2014 - 10

Meenans having a good season this year but still no better than Forrester. Certainly was not better last season

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Originally Posted by Rathfarnham_Saint

Only his second ever managerial job, 7 years ago, 11 games over 5 months, 4 loses. We lost 3 of or first 11 games last season for instance.

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2nd job? He had 4/5 years experience at the time. I'm not blowing it out of proportion, I'm just saying he's not infallible like you're trying to make him out to be

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Originally Posted by Kevo

Say what you want about Forrester but in the last 3 seasons hes scored 25 league goals which is a great return for a player who plays out wide

2012 - 6
2013 - 9
2014 - 10

Meenans having a good season this year but still no better than Forrester. Certainly was not better last season

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I'm not criticising the chap. We all know what an exceptional talent he is. We all know he does blow hot and cold - that wasn't a criticism, it was an observation - and we all make allowances for his age.

My point was only about the margin in quality between the top players in the league, which I think is exceptionally narrow. We basically swapped Kavo for Greene last week, for example, and no-one can say with any certainty who got the better end of the deal.

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Originally Posted by oleguer presas i renom

I'm not criticising the chap. We all know what an exceptional talent he is. We all know he does blow hot and cold - that wasn't a criticism, it was an observation - and we all make allowances for his age.

My point was only about the margin in quality between the top players in the league, which I think is exceptionally narrow. We basically swapped Kavo for Greene last week, for example, and no-one can say with any certainty who got the better end of the deal.

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Poeple dont recognise his importance when he is "blowing cold" - he is easily our most creative player, and while not at his best the last few weeks, he ahs got 2 goals and been central to most of our chances we have created.

Fenlon is to be watched obviously.

But as loads are saying he isn't the messiah. His record is fantastic in with Shels and Bohs but he did a pretty shite job at Hibs and an atrocious job at Derry.

The guy needs money to win, I'm not saying he won't get it, but how much I don't know. I don't think Rovers are stupid enough to give him the kind of money Shels and Bohs threw at him/he demanded. One to watch, but no need to shit ourselves. Our manager is a winner too.

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Originally Posted by Rathfarnham_Saint

His record at Derry is blown way out of proportion. Only his second ever managerial job, 7 years ago, 11 games over 5 months, 4 loses. We lost 3 of or first 11 games last season for instance.

He will have the biggest budget for the next few years. In LOI terms it's the equivalent of Mourinho going to Man City. They'll walk the league next year.

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put some ice on that fenlon boner would you!

He is a very good manager, among the best in the league. but as I said, he is not the fucking messiah. he has a horrific record in europe, has lost as many leagues as he has won (he has won a very good amount). He had the pick of the best players in the league for the guts of a decade - I dont think there is as big a gap between the best players as there was then.

Shams will be competitive next year, in fact I would be surprised if "on paper" they dont have the best squad come February. but this season we had the best squad (by some distance) and look how far off the pace we are (look at Kenny at Rovers, or even Fenlon himself at Shels in 2005, or how he bottled the league in 2010 - all these teams were teh "best on paper")

If we keep the same budget as we currently do, I would expect us to have as good a chance at winning the league in 2015 as Shams do.

His time at Bohs and Shels was when they had a far superior budget than anyone else (other than ourselves for 1 season) and it was impossible for the best players to turn them down, 3 or 4 clubs offer competitive wages now which makes it harder to get all the best players.

The best players other than rovers in this league are playing for ourselves, Dundalk, Cork and to a lesser extent Sligo and Derry. Cork and Derry are all local lads and its rare their players leave to sign for Dublin clubs. Ourselves and Dundalk will be able to match wages that rovers will offer for the players we really want. Sligo don't have much that will improve rovers enough to make them better than us or Dundalk.

Fenlon will probably end up bringing players in from the UK and that doesn't mean its gonna be a success.

Fenlon's success with Shels and Bohs is very similar to what Jim McLaughlin did with Rovers and Derry back in the late 80s. He developed a very good squad by outbidding everyone else in the League. When he busted Shels he found his way to Bohs and brought the pick of those players with him and then hoovered up the best of the rest. He was able to get Crowe, Byrne and Heary while we were signing O'Neill, Fitzpatrick and Rogers. McLaughlin did the same by bringing a lot of players he managed to Derry. It's so much easier to transfer success across two clubs when you are working with a core of players who you know and trust. He'll be starting from scratch this time as all the players he had are retired or past it. He may not have the funds to simply buy the best players in the League this time. I'm not panicking yet as Derry and Hibs are the two clubs he's found himself in where he has to manage without being the biggest spenders.

We got Rodgers from Derry and Fitzer from Drogs. We took O'Neill, Harris and Ndo from that Shels side.

Point was more that Fenlon was able to pick up the cream of that team while Johnny who was assistant to Fenlon at Shels ended up getting the second string.

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Originally Posted by eskersaint

Point was more that Fenlon was able to pick up the cream of that team while Johnny who was assistant to Fenlon at Shels ended up getting the second string.

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Not to be a know-it-all, but Heary and Crowe were signed by Sean Connor and Byrne came via Cardiff.

It's definitely better to be a lucky manager than a good one.

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Originally Posted by oleguer presas i renom

We got Rodgers from Derry and Fitzer from Drogs. We took O'Neill, Harris and Ndo from that Shels side.

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Harris went over to Stephen Kenny in Scotland first didn't he?

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Originally Posted by Inchicore

Harris went over to Stephen Kenny in Scotland first didn't he?

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Know-it-all.

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Originally Posted by oleguer presas i renom

Not to be a know-it-all, but Heary and Crowe were signed by Sean Connor and Byrne came via Cardiff.

It's definitely better to be a lucky manager than a good one.

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I am pretty sure Byrne came from Shelbourne. I think Fenlon at Shels sold him and had first option to re-sign him. Connor signed Brian Murphy (Ipswich goalkeeper) Owen Keary, Glen Crowe, Mark Rossiter and I think Killian Brennan

Lads, the big picture here is Johnny Mac made some awful bleeding signings

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Lads, the big picture here is Johnny Mac made some awful bleeding signings

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He really did, plus he had a massive inferiority complex when it came to playing against Fenlon's teams. In his mind those games were lost before them commenced.

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Originally Posted by Richsaint

He really did, plus he had a massive inferiority complex when it came to playing against Fenlon's teams. In his mind those games were lost before them commenced.

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This absolutely wrecks my head, it just happens that they were better than us. This inferiority complex thing is ridiculous. Do people honestly think Johnny Mac influenced 11 footballers to the extent that they didn't think they could beat shels. Doesn't even make sense.




No offence

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Originally Posted by saintly

This absolutely wrecks my head, it just happens that they were better than us. This inferiority complex thing is ridiculous. Do people honestly think Johnny Mac influenced 11 footballers to the extent that they didn't think they could beat shels. Doesn't even make sense.




No offence

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if I recall correctly we were top/doing well after a few games, he played Maguire at CB just after coming back from injury away to them and we lost 3-0. Imo there was no reason to play Maguire in that game as he was bollixed after 30 minutes. I was convinced JMC knew we would lose so used it as a runout for maguire.

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Originally Posted by kdjac

if I recall correctly we were top/doing well after a few games, he played Maguire at CB just after coming back from injury away to them and we lost 3-0. Imo there was no reason to play Maguire in that game as he was bollixed after 30 minutes. I was convinced JMC knew we would lose so used it as a runout for maguire.

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You seriously think this....seriously like.

Fenlon used to use the tactic of signing players, not necessarily, because they would strengthen his team, but to also prevent other teams from getting stronger or by weakening them by taking their best players. Very effective tactic when it comes to winning Leagues but when a club is doing that in this League you know it's going to bankrupt itself.

Is there any evidence to support the claims Pats, Dundalk etc.. Can match Rovers in the paying as much as them in the wages department.

I know they can are we are, but figures wise I'm talking about. It's generally excepted that rovers have revenue streams open to them that no other club has or at least not as much. But when it comes to paying out wages, a lot of other clubs can match them. So talk of them been on the road to rack and ruin, squandering money seem a bit pointless, when all the top clubs are on an equal pegging or near enough wages wise, but probably a big gulf between some revenue wise when it comes to paying for these wages.

Fenlon's a football manager and no more. He's not one for rolling up his sleeves and getting involved in the greater good of the Club. He was the first out of Shels when the shit hit the fan, didn't hang around Bohes long after the shit hit the fan there. He had no stomach for the hard work required to manage Derry or Hibs. So are Rovers going to throw loads of money at him and the fans love him or is he going to have to work hard and put up with the supporters impatience?
At least with Rovers they have no property to gamble with so money in the bank and annual income is all he has to play with. I don't think it'll take him too long to spend all that and then cry off to his next victim. Might be a pain in the hole for us while he drains the renter but it won't be for too long.

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Originally Posted by Rathcoolesaint

Fenlon's a football manager and no more. He's not one for rolling up his sleeves and getting involved in the greater good of the Club. He was the first out of Shels when the shit hit the fan, didn't hang around Bohes long after the shit hit the fan there. He had no stomach for the hard work required to manage Derry or Hibs. So are Rovers going to throw loads of money at him and the fans love him or is he going to have to work hard and put up with the supporters impatience?
At least with Rovers they have no property to gamble with so money in the bank and annual income is all he has to play with. I don't think it'll take him too long to spend all that and then cry off to his next victim. Might be a pain in the hole for us while he drains the renter but it won't be for too long.

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Again the whole "he will make them go bust in no time" type post. But all the top clubs are spending in and around the same on wages, while some clubs revenue streams are far bigger than others. So is Buckley going to make us go bust ? Or Kenny with Dundalk ? Etc...

I thought he did alright with Bohs. Didn't he not get a bog average Bohs team into Europe the season after they where smashed. And only left when he got the Hibs job ?He done alright there too when you see how much they went into free fall when left

The "he will make them go bust" type posts are probably based on the fact that he made two of the biggest clubs in the country go bust. They were also the two jobs where he had any success. What people are saying is that he has a track record of buying success without any consideration for the state of the club when it goes pear shaped. Whether he's allowed do this at Rovers or if they have the cash reserves to support it for any length of time is very doubtful.

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Originally Posted by eskersaint

The "he will make them go bust" type posts are probably based on the fact that he made two of the biggest clubs in the country go bust. They were also the two jobs where he had any success. What people are saying is that he has a track record of buying success without any consideration for the state of the club when it goes pear shaped. Whether he's allowed do this at Rovers or if they have the cash reserves to support it for any length of time is very doubtful.

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Where is the facts to say that the demise of Bohs and Shels where in no small part down to Fenlon ?

To me at Shels is was solely down to one person, Ollie Byrne. Take your pick from the procession line of idiots that run or have run Bohs in the past

I'm sure Fenlon asked and got what he was asked for at both clubs, down to the ego's and pipe dreamers of CL group stage is around around the corner, at both club.

Name one current manager in the league you don't think asks for an increase to the playing budget either pre season or in the summer transfer window ? If the clowns that run the clubs give it to them, how is it the managers fault ?

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Originally Posted by bluebellred

Where is the facts to say that the demise of Bohs and Shels where in no small part down to Fenlon ?

To me at Shels is was solely down to one person, Ollie Byrne. Take your pick from the procession line of idiots that run or have run Bohs in the past

I'm sure Fenlon asked and got what he was asked for at both clubs, down to the ego's and pipe dreamers of CL group stage is around around the corner, at both club.

Name one current manager in the league you don't think asks for an increase to the playing budget either pre season or in the summer transfer window ? If the clowns that run the clubs give it to them, how is it the managers fault ?

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The facts are pretty straightforward. Both clubs suffered their financial meltdown during Fenlon's reign. Couldn't actually be any more straightforward. Most managers ask for more money but usually when they realise it's not there they at least consider the consequences of pushing clubs to the limit. Weak boards play their part but the common link with Shels and Bohs is Fenlon and a select group of his favourite players.

or maybe the perfect club has just hired the perfect manager and we're all fucked

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Originally Posted by eskersaint

The facts are pretty straightforward. Both clubs suffered their financial meltdown during Fenlon's reign. Couldn't actually be any more straightforward. Most managers ask for more money but usually when they realise it's not there they at least consider the consequences of pushing clubs to the limit. Weak boards play their part but the common link with Shels and Bohs is Fenlon and a select group of his favourite players.

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By that way of thinking you probably think Bucko was the reason behind Fingals demise and wasn't he at rovers for the start of the downfall

Managers spend what's given to them and still ask for more. That's fairytail thinking if you think any manager is worried by the consequences of pushing a club for more. To a manager not asking for extra money for players could just be the difference of them been still in a job the rest of the season or next

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Originally Posted by Rathcoolesaint

or maybe the perfect club has just hired the perfect manager and we're all fucked

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I wouldn't go that far :)

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Originally Posted by bluebellred

I wouldn't go that far :)

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You're right that it's the leadership above the football manager that is the real fault for the Bohes and Shels collapse but I don't think Fenlon is that good of a manager that without a superior budget he's still win league titles no question.
Personally I think the Rovers job is poison and it'll take someone from outside of the LOI with thick skin to succeed ala MON

and I hope I'm right.....

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Originally Posted by Rathcoolesaint

You're right that it's the leadership above the football manager that is the real fault for the Bohes and Shels collapse but I don't think Fenlon is that good of a manager that without a superior budget he's still win league titles no question.
Personally I think the Rovers job is poison and it'll take someone from outside of the LOI with thick skin to succeed ala MON

and I hope I'm right.....

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It's an interesting one. I think he done alright with next to nothing at Hibs. I have a fondness for Hibs many years now. He had some right arseholes on the playing staff, and the fans had expectations bordering on delusion at times (bit like at rovers) all because rangers where gone and Hearts where awful too. 2 Cup Finals and a season saving the club from relegation and left them midtable before he left was not a bad return thinking back on it, seen as Butcher era was a short lived total disaster with the same bunch of players

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Originally Posted by bluebellred

Hibs.............the fans had expectations bordering on delusion at times

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Big time, Hibs fans have always been this way, not all, but most

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Originally Posted by bluebellred

all because rangers where gone and Hearts where awful too

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Constantly losing to probably the worst Hearts team in MANY years was too much to take for Hibs fans in the end.


Butcher was a nightmare though, and there's no doubt IMO Fenlon would've kept Hibs up